Yesterday we posted a blog piece, Women and Equalities Committee hear from ‘Adolescence’ producers about misogyny among young men and boys. The indefatigable Nigel – our #1 commenter – picked up on a Movember report, and sent these comments, which take up the remainder of this blog piece:

Perhaps unsurprisingly Movember have done a survey of the use of “manosphere” “influencers” on young men, the resulting report is Young men’s health in a digital world. I expected a feminist analysis because way back Movember was set up by gay men {J4MB: They do love their moustaches…]. So I expect a “diversity” narrative. But it’s interesting how unlike the age profile, social class and moral panic stuff being pushed by Adolescence the data actually shows. Far from ‘incels” it seems the manosphere is a source of inspiring self-help advice men in their 20s. The stuff about attitudes to women made me laugh because, far from worrying, it seems the issues are pretty mundane things inevitable in modern dating if one simply regards women as flawed people rather than total saints. Men, as much as women, find the opposite sex frustrating and difficult to fathom …. a theme probably as old as time.

Movember’s associated webpage is here, video (12:56) here. Given the rarity of any surveys of actual young men, rather than watching TV dramas I read the full report. In contradiction to the narrative the proportion “engaged” increases with age and measures of wealth, an important finding glossed over. Also interestingly both the “engaged” and “unengaged” generally have traditional views of gender roles (of concern to the Movember surveyers given its roots in the gay community ). Also interestingly the main findings are that the engaged find the influencers entertaining and useful and promote self-improvement, emotional self-control, increased self-worth. Again given the link with age it is perhaps not surprising that young men in their early- and mid-twenties are seeking to become more established. They write:

“Our research has shown that men and masculinity influencers can reinforce rigid and limiting views about gender roles and masculinity, but that there are also positive outcomes for young men from engaging in this content. These positive outcomes are likely related to the more motivating messages that are part of a broader mix of themes discussed by influencers, and the range of influencers who are part of this ecosystem.”

Again unsurprisingly one of the areas of interest is dating and forming relationships. And here the “engaged” have a more sceptical view of the dating scene and process, but the unengaged are almost as sceptical. This is presented as being negative about women, but of course another interpretation is it simply reflects the young men’s experiences, particularly given the “engaged” are in the older cohorts and can be assumed to have more experience of dating and relationships than the 16/17 year olds. They continue:

“When it came to young men’s views of gender roles and beliefs about women and romantic relationships, we found that regularly engaging with this content was associated with more negative and limiting attitudes towards women, their roles in relationships, and more frustrations with dating. These findings align with narratives promoted in the content depicting gender-equality as a zero-sum game disadvantaging men. [J4MB emphasis. Movember appear depressingly feminist-compliant. “Gender-equality” is of course feminist-speak for female privileging, which of course disadvantages men. How could it not?] However, it’s important to note many young men still held limiting beliefs about women even if they weren’t actively engaging with men and masculinity content.”

So, to sum up. Like surveys of young women, generally young men think in terms of traditional gender roles, we know the same is true for young women because each time the Social Attitudes surveys find young women aspire to find a man and form a family the Fawcett Society says young women need to be educated out of these aspirations. Young men find dating difficult and frustrating and as they grow up a bit, seek advice and information from “engaging” with influencers. This results in a lot of self-help, to get fit, to get a good job, to be stoical and resilient. Oddly enough precisely the qualities young women say they want in a husband/partner. And this advice is more sought as the young men get older and probably get a bit more serious about finding a partner.

No massive number of teens worshipping Andrew Tate, no hatred of women, just disappointment and caution and confusion (should you pay for the date? etc.) And the obvious observation that if you discriminate in favour of one group, the other group you discriminate against will not see it as a “zero sum” policy. Oh and no young incels plotting to stab teenage girls.

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